BCIFV home > Newsletter > 1996 Archives > Fall 1996 articles

Interview with Robert Kiyoshk
Change of Seasons Program
Part Two

Robert Kiyoshk first coordinated the Squamish Nation Men's Domestic Violence Counsellor Training Program, known as the Change of Seasons Program, in 1992, and continues to manage the men's spousal assault program. He currently delivers workshops and training to First Nations communities and service providers. This interview was conducted at the Squamish Nation Reserve in June 1996 by BCIFV Newsletter Editor, Barbara Sherman. Part One of this interview is included in the Summer 1996 edition.

Q: The Change of Seasons program works with assaultive Aboriginal men. What modifications do you have to make working with men in the program when on a reserve or in an urban setting?

A: We have a group here in North Vancouver and a group in Mount Currie, and there have been a couple of groups inside federal institutions. The situations in each group naturally will be quite different. Even though we are on the reserve here in North Vancouver, we are basically a reserve within an urban setting, and virtually all the clients we get here are urban people. We get a good number of people from probation and some from other agencies, half of whom would be self-referred. And now it's really fortunate that a lot of the referrals are from friends of men who have been in the program who are coming because their friends told them that here is something you can get help with.

I don't think there is a lot of reluctance by the men to admit to themselves or others what they have been doing. I think their reluctance is in the difficulty of finding an agency that will treat them with respect, not pamper them necessarily, but that will give them something unique and different than what the men perceive as conventional forms of therapy or counselling.

There is a hard and soft aspect to our program, I guess. We do not allow minimization. We do not allow denial of the abuse. If someone says they are not abusive, then we will simply say this is not the program for you then, because that is what we deal with here. If you really want to come and address these issues then fine. On the other hand we are quite understanding. I believe that our counsellors are really sensitive to the issues.

In ritual, when we begin our program, we do a clearing of ourselves. Sometimes there is a prayer said. We smudge and that is a cleansing of oneself. What that means is we will attempt to do things in a positive and honest way and what we are about to do will be productive and will be for everyone. We acknowledge that the reason we are here is for ourselves, but equally important is that we are here for our children and for other people like our spouses and people in our community.

It is with that understanding that we go into the group, so that regardless of what someone has done, regardless of what they say, they will not be condemned for it, they will not be shamed for it. The other men will empathize, they will hurt along with them, the men will feel good with them when they start feeling better, and when that sense of relief comes then the other men will be part of that too. What we strongly suggest to the men is that you start to build connections with other men. We exchange telephone numbers and we say, after the group you guys should go for coffee, get together and talk. When there is a crisis building in your relationship, phone another man in the group, phone someone who is going to give you honest, direct feedback and not collude with you in the situation.

That is where the strength of the group comes from, from men learning from other men. When a man is supportive of another man in that way. It's a powerful learning lesson for the person who is helping as well as the person getting the support. We understand that when men come here, like every native person in Canada, the culture, the values, the ceremonies, the teachings have been stripped away from that individual. There will be a lot of discomfort when those men come here and say, "This is a cultural program, are they going to ask me to say a prayer or do something I'm not familiar with?" It's really hard for a man who is 30 or 40 years old to start out like he's in kindergarten and say, "I might have a degree from the university or I might be the foreman on my job, but here, when it comes to the culture, I don't know a heck of a lot." For them to step into a learner's role is very difficult.

We know there is a lot of anxiety around that, so we approach it very gently and gradually and we don't compel anyone to do anything they are uncomfortable with. We ask that they be there to observe at least, and see what the other men get from it, and then gradually as the group progresses the subject matter gets harder. Things like dealing with your most violent incident. Dealing with your sexual abuse in a relationship. Dealing with whatever comes up, but gradually it gets more intense, and that's OK because the trust is building and the men are able to deal with deeper issues.

After that cathartic sort of experience in the group, then that is when we demonstrate that there is something we can do that is uniquely ours. We have the sweat lodges, we have the pipe ceremony. We have cold water baths where we go up into the mountains and into the creeks and ponds up there. Those kinds of rituals, of doing things together, it's a real natural high. It's a rush for a lot of them when they come out of those situations. It's something that they see they haven't received anywhere else. Then it's like, wow, these are all our own guys, these are guys who have been there, done what I've done, been in the same circumstances. And here I'm feeling good with these guys while at the same time reinforcing the belief that what I did was not OK, and I can make a commitment to change that.

After doing that again and again, it starts to sink in and people get a really good feeling. At the same time I don't encourage what we call a "born-again" type of scenario, the thing that (therapist) Dale Trimble has talked about, where people have turned over a new leaf and after you start going to church or accepted the Lord, then all of a sudden things are OK. We don't advocate the approach either where you come in and you get 110% involved in your culture and feel good about yourself, but you forget about what you did.

The focus of every gathering we have isn't the cultural activity; it's that we are here for a specific reason, a specific problem that has to be addressed. It's a fact that we've hurt someone we loved and we can never forget that. Nor do we want to forget it. I think that is the philosophy of our approach in this kind of work.

The circumstances in native communities, on the reserves, is a lot different than if you were doing a group at a Family Service or Social Service agency in the urban setting. For example, if there is a death or a crisis in the community, then out of respect everyone in that community stops doing what they are doing for that day. And naturally group cannot be held on that day. If there is a crisis everything is put on hold, including the group, including the social work stuff, and that is just something that has to be respected.

So if Probation gets our attendance report and all of a sudden everybody didn't show on one day, then we would just say, well, that's what happened. There was a funeral, there was a child hurt or something drastic like that, and everyone in the community pays attention to that event and are available to act as witnesses or as support. At other agencies perhaps everyone would get a slap on the wrist for not going to group whereas on the reserve it's just not something that is done.

I think what has happened is that a community is raised with a certain paradigm or a mental model that stipulates there is going to be a social service agency whose function is to do this job. On the other hand, so many useful, long-term effective programs have been done voluntarily. But there is this notion that if we don't get funded for it then maybe it's not worth all that much. And that maybe whoever is doing this has to be a therapist with a master's degree in psychology, whereas there is no master's degree in spirituality or in learning how to conduct ceremonies. As long as you have the empathy and the willingness to help others, those are important criteria.

Of course we also have to train our men to deal specifically with abuse issues. But I think in terms of programs on reserves there is again that mental model that it has to be a paid position. It has to be someone with certain academic qualifications. Of course there has to be trained people, but I think there are other ways of funding programs, of making things happen. Where I come from we have societies that deal specifically with our cultural and spiritual activities. We don't take a dime from anyone else, but still people are travelling thousands of miles to attend ceremonies. Any money that is generated, anything we do, we do it ourselves, and it is that kind of initiative that is lacking in so many native communities.

What I would like to say is that I sometimes emphasize a lot of the negative things, but that is really not how I approach the work. I always use the expression "the eye cannot see the eye", meaning community cannot see itself, so it's good to get external advice. But travelling to various communities and seeing things time and again, it can become a prevalent thing in one's mind. I think that's partly where I'm coming from. But I also believe that personal empowerment is the strongest, the best thing that can happen to native communities. And it is the best thing that can happen to people who are clients in our groups.

What is also needed in order to improve the way we work in native communities is not to separate ourselves from our colleagues. I know so many people who do really good work with family violence, people that I respect a great deal. It's important not to distance ourselves from those people, but to remain their colleagues, to do our work in our way and to learn from them. But I think the next step for the native people in the province who do this kind of work is to establish our own terms of reference, our own guiding principles for work within native communities. There was an initiative called the SAIP, the Sexual Abuse Intervention Program standards and guidelines, back about three years ago, and I think that same kind of initiative could be done for the people who work in the area of spousal abuse.

In some of our communities also there is a real dearth of resource material for people to access who work in this area, particularly stuff that is produced and distributed in native communities by native people. Again it comes down to personal initiative. Do I do this kind of work for acceptance in the mainstream community or because I think it has to be done? This is an important issue to address. There is a real lack of good resource material and that is something that could be addressed by establishing a strong native network.

Q: What about the idea of having a Native organization to conduct research, and perhaps in conjunction with the Ministry of Attorney General to coordinate the development of guiding principles and program development for Native communities in the province?

If a Ministry were to be involved, I think financial support might be there, but I think there might be a reluctance to go that route. There might be this sort of assumption as to whether this is going to be theirs or ours, who is going to control this, because that is not self-determination by any stretch of the imagination. Those agencies, those ministries always place their criteria on what you develop and who owns it. I think there are all those considerations.

I think probably an organization such as UNN (United Native Nations) or something like that who has the mandate to serve native people could acquire or generate funds for such a project and then basically set their own criteria. The UNN were really helpful to us in the second training we did. They acted as a sponsor. They administered the dollars, but they gave myself and Bruce (my colleague) complete leeway and flexibility in delivering the program as we saw fit, because they saw us as the people who knew how to do it. They didn't want to interfere but they wanted to do something they thought would benefit the native community.

Q: What are you working on right now in terms of publications, research, and program development?

A: I am currently working on producing a manual with two other individuals. It's a self-help book for assaultive men, and I am going to contribute a chapter or two on working with First Nations men. This is something I would call a work in progress. We have a publisher lined up; we haven't signed any contract yet, but it looks really good.

On another level, I would like to learn how to deliver the systems approach conferences called Future Search Conferences. This approach is holistic and can be used in any type of system or organization, whether it is social work or economic development. I want to learn how to deliver those things in a really proficient manner and then take that approach to working with the native community so that everyone is involved. This is an approach that requires involvement from all the key people in an organization. It was developed by someone named Marvin Weisbord. He has a book called Discovering Common Ground. It is a really empowering and motivating way of doing things and I find it so positive because it is inclusive of everyone's concerns. It focuses a lot on the strengths of the community and the resources that a community has. It emphasizes all those good things and that is the type of thing I want to bring into my work.

Q: Do you want to make any statements with regard to any political or social issues?

A: I'm not a very political person. I think it is really hard to make statements, particularly about political issues or social problems. When I talk to a group of people at a conference or to an individual or a group of clients and I suggest that we have some things that can be really useful to us, that can really help us, I don't want to come across as being a spiritual leader or anyone who is particularly unique in any respect when it comes to things such as the traditional ways and teachings.

I don't see myself as that. I see myself as someone who is really proud that those things are part of my culture, and that I am really glad I recognized those things and learned to use them to my benefit. In suggesting this approach to others I don't want to be seen as a spiritual leader or an elder or something like that, because the whole guru aspect is trash. I don't want to put myself in that category at all because I don't see myself as being that. I am another person who is trying .......that's all.